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Blog Pollin': Week Twelve Ballot

This may be my week of numb existence, but such is the circle of the BlogPoll: my games-played-only philosophy hasn’t changed at all, but at this point, there’s enough evidence available that everyone is effectively taking a "resumé" approach to some degree. Although, given the continued presence of Hawaii in the rankings, we’re obviously still drawing very different conclusions from that application. I’m not going to harangue anymore on the Warriors, but there is more on rewarding merely not losing below.

BlogPoll Ballot, Week 12
This is not a power poll.
1. Oregon (8-1)
2. LSU (9-1)
3. Oklahoma (9-1)
4. Missouri (9-1)
5. Kansas (10-0)
6. Ohio State (10-1)
7. Arizona State (9-1)
8. West Virginia (8-1)
9. Georgia (8-2)
10. Virginia Tech (8-2)
11. Texas (8-2)
12. Illinois (8-3)
13. Virginia (9-2)
14. Southern Cal (8-2)
15. Boston College (8-2)
16. Florida (7-3)
17. Clemson (8-2)
18. Tennessee (7-3)
19. Cincinnati (8-2)
20. Connecticut (8-2)
21. Kentucky (7-3)
22. South Florida (7-3)
23. Wisconsin (8-3)
24. Penn State (8-3)
25. Michigan (8-3)
Waiting: Auburn, Florida State, Alabama, Boise State, California, Purdue, Hawaii, Wake Forest, BYU, Mississippi State.
- - -
First: LSU relinquishes its two-month hold on my number one spot. I kept the Tigers on top even after they lost to Kentucky, so impressed was I by their run of Virginia Tech-South Carolina-Florida while so many other teams were still just warming up to the conference schedule, and kept them there as they went on to beat Auburn and Alabama. But that’s living in the past, friends, and here we adapt: Carolina is most definitely not who we thought it was back in September, or even early October, and Auburn and Bama were tremendously devalued by bad losses last week. In the end, Oregon’s bye Saturday might have been worth more than the burden of adding Louisiana Tech:
LSU Oregon
Arizona State
Virginia Tech
Florida Southern Cal
Michigan
Auburn
Miss. State
Alabama
South Carolina
Wash. State
Houston
Fresno State
Stanford
Washington
Middle Tenn. State
Tulane
Louisiana Tech
Kentucky California
Oregon’s schedule is really impressive in its lack of fluff: in addition to the marquee, wipeout wins over Arizona State and Michigan, all of the Ducks’ non-conference games are against teams with winning records, and the three losing teams the Ducks have taken on are all conference opponents that between them have defeated USC, Boise State and UCLA and played Arizona State to the last snap. Collectively, the nine foes Oregon has played so far have the third-highest winning percentage of any other schedule in the country.

If there is a theme for the rest of the poll this week, it is to reward big wins and ruthlessly punish mediocrity/the exploitation thereof, and operational target mas grande on that front is Kansas. In retrospect, I was way too kind in my breakdown of the Jayhawks’ place at the table Tuesday. When KU beat Kansas State a week after the Wildcats pounded Texas at Texas, that looked like a good, affirming win. When KU won at Colorado when the Buffaloes were 4-3 and only a couple games removed from beating Oklahoma, that looked like a decent win. Texas A&M and Nebraska are usually good, right, or at least talented, and look at that score over Nebraska! And wasn’t Oklahoma State making some kind of noise since it switched quarterbacks? Time travel to three weeks ago, a month ago, all of those wins look like justifiable steps to the elite.

Those who would rank the Jayhawks one or two on those merits have left their minds in mid-October. Since losing to Kansas, Kansas State is 2-3 with back-to-back losses to last place Iowa State and hopeless Nebraska, by which the Wildcats were thoroughly shamed by a six-touchdown margin. Colorado has been humiliated by Missouri and, again, last place Iowa State. Since the start of October, lame ducks A&M and Nebraska are a combined 3-9, one of those wins coming against the other. Altogether, even disregarding Kansas’ truly atrocious non-conference slate, the six Big 12 teams the Jayhawks have vanquished to date are 14-27 in conference play, and not one of them has a winning record against the rest of the league; only Oklahoma State, at 3-3, so much as breaks even. The only KU opponent above .500 for the season is Texas A&M, which is 6-5, has lost four of its last five by an average of almost three touchdowns and itself has all of one victory over a winning team (6-4 Fresno State, in double overtime).

Per the very persuasive wisdom of Gunslingers, via poll master MGoBlog:

In sum, if you are ranking Kansas highly, you must be placing a lot of emphasis on not losing, without regard to how bad or mediocre the opposition is. And if you are placing a lot of emphasis on not losing to bad or mediocre opposition, there are about two dozen other teams who also haven't lost to bad or mediocre opposition (but several of them have played and beaten good or great opposition).
- - -
I.e., Kansas has conclusively demonstrated, at best, it’s capable of beating a 5-5 team with a 3-3 record in the Big 12, which also lost to Troy, and that it can beat similarly bleh outfits on a consistent basis. We know nothing at all about the Jayhawks against actually good teams. Note: when LD says "two dozen other teams" there, it’s not hyperbole – check out that link.

So missing Texas and Oklahoma in the same season means something, and that something is that you don’t get to be in the top two or three until you face one of them in the conference championship game. Kansas still remains at fifth for now because Ohio State, Arizona State and West Virginia also have no wins over another team with fewer than three losses – nor does the team directly in front of the Jayhawks, Missouri. But come next week, if Ohio State beats Michigan, West Virginia beats Cincinnati and Arizona State beats its meat during a bye week before its game with USC, it will probably be enough for all of them to move ahead of KU no matter what happens against Iowa State (who, two-game winning streak notwithstanding, is still in last place). Kansas will get its chance against Missouri, but I’m with Brian on that one: based on what we know right now, the Tigers are going to run away with the North spoon.

Regular readers know I try to approach every pick as systematically as possible by comparing wins and losses (I don’t do formulas or algortihms), but biased, loose, arbitray, misinformed common sense prevails over the systematic insistence of Virginia in the top ten. Again, given enough chances against not-bad teams, any team that can demonstrate some degree of consistency will find itself in some high cotton eventually, but Virginia’s best win to date – even over its demolition of foundering Miami Saturday – is a one-point trip across the finish line against UConn; if it’s not that one, it’s the Cavs’ one-point win over Wake Forest, or their one-point win over Maryland, or their five-point win over Georgia Tech. Consistency counts for something at some point, but all of those dramatic victories were gathering mold the second the gun went off. More damning, UVA has two terrible losses: one to N.C. State, which, the Wolfpack’s late winning streak aside, is still bad, and one to Wyoming, which looks worse and worse not only because Virginia delivered one of the three or four single worst performances by any respectable team all season, but did it against a mid-major team that’s now lost four of its last five, most recently getting trounced 50-0 by Utah.


Circumstances change quickly. Evolve! Evolve!
- - -
As opposed to Illinois, for example, which has one more loss than UVA, but has now also beaten an impressive triumverate of Ohio State, Wisconsin and Penn State and lost close games against Missouri and Michigan. The Illini’s close loss at Iowa is the only game keeping it from the top ten. In other words, Illinois has done a lot of good, and Virginia has done a lot of kinda good, as well as, all things considered, probably more bad. So system be damned, I’m dropping the Cavaliers.

I’m just as skeptical of Southern Cal at fourteenth, mainly because the Trojans have faced (based on opponents’ winning percentage) the weakest schedule of any team in any of the BCS conferences. USC’s first nine opponents are collectively 36-51, only two of them (the last two, Oregon State and Cal, both 6-4) winners overall. SC is in the same boat as Kansas and Virginia: respect will come when the big fish at the end of the schedule (Missouri, Arizona State, Virginia Tech) is in the boat, and not before.

The decision to move Kentucky and South Florida ahead of the pack of Big Ten teams at the bottom of the poll was also a case of rewarding big wins: the Wildcats and Bulls each remain the only defeat on the resumés of LSU and West Virginia, respectively, and earn more significant points every successive week that’s the case, even as their wins over South Carolina and Auburn progressively lose their shine. As for the indistinguishable Big Ten trio bringing up the rear: Michigan is third because it had the weakest of the head-to-head wins in the group, and because it lost to Appalachian State (mainly because it lost to Appalachian State); it didn’t seem right, then, to push Penn State ahead of Wisconsin simply because PSU beat the Badgers, since I ignored head-to-head in putting the Lions ahead of Michigan (and there is no way to position these three without putting at least one of them below another it defeated). Outside of Penn State’s win over the Badgers last month, the conference wins are in effect identical; Wisconsin goes in front because its opening win over Washington State gave it the slightest possible margin over Penn State in non-conference schedule strength. There is no foolproof way of sorting out that tangle.

Everything will be different next week.

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Illinois over Virginia
is an excellent call, and though I'm certainly inclined to trust your system over time even the 13 spot seems a little high.

Also, perhaps Illinois over Texas.  The extra loss, particularly considering that the loss in question was to Iowa, is a huge problem.  However, the 20 point home loss to KSU by the Longhorns is (as is evident from you recitation of KSU's resume in the Kansas context) looking worse and worse.  The Illini trifecta of PSU, Wiscy and AT OSU (in pretty much non-marginal fashion - yes the 3 ints but Illinois controlled the game) really does seem to surpass just about all of Texas' wins.  The beat down at ISU is looking very impressive considering the Cyclones run of form since that time but on balance Illinois ability to consistenly compete with and often beat good (or at least decent) teams would seem to give them the edge.

by marcillac on Nov 14, 2007 2:20 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A UVA fan with no complaints on Illinois
You make a good call there.  The fact that the Illini have subdued 3 of the other 4 top dogs in their conference is worth noting and makes them fairly unique among 3-loss teams; I don't think any other 3-losser can claim that level of consistency against strong competition.  UVA has so far gone just 1-0 at best against a similar set (defeating Wake, who I would call ACC #5, in a dead heat with FSU for that "honor"), albeit with the strong out-of-conference win vs. UConn.

Making a decision between Oregon and LSU will get really interesting during these last weeks, as LSU's schedule gets deeper in the middle (Arkansas and UT/UGA) while most of each team's highly acclaimed opponents (Virginia Tech, Arizona State, USC, Michigan, Auburn) face tests that could make LSU or Oregon look significantly better or worse depending on the outcome.

by HooShotYa on Nov 14, 2007 4:15 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

(Slight) Defense for a Kansas vote
Kansas' opponents are only 35-44 against 1-A teams not named Kansas, but.... the 37 teams those 9 are 35-44 against are themselves 166-155 against 1-A teams not including Kansas and Kansas' opponents, so it's not like Kansas' Os are playing chopped liver.

Contrast LSU: their 10 opponents are 50-35 against 1-A teams, but their 41 opponents' opponents are only 153-184 against the 68 teams that didn't play LSU or any of LSU's opponents.

Just as you need to take WP with  an OWP grain of salt, OWP can be misleading if the OOWP isn't taken into account.

by JPK on Nov 14, 2007 6:31 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Which is why...
All the good ranking systems use an iterative method. In theory, the more levels you look at, the clearer picture you get.

by dethwing on Nov 14, 2007 7:01 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, even bad ranking systems
...might use an iterative method, but one does have to be careful about how one constructs it. "The more levels you look at the better" is not a universal truth.

In the records I cited above, for instance, I was careful to exclude OOOs games vs any of the OOs to avoid counting the same game more than once. Not every iterative system does so, and in those that don't you have to work some to glean relevance.

Note that there are some really good iterative systems that glean lots of good info from the duplication in games between Os and games between OOs and multiple Os, but to use that data you have to get a lot more sophisticated than just cumulative records.

There's about 8,000 subsets of size 4 or greater where every team in the subset plays every other team in it, and no team in it is a member of such a subset of higher order. Those are the "molecules" of a pure resume-based system that covers everything. One of these days I'll implement it, but for now I'm too lazy...

by JPK on Nov 14, 2007 8:23 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kentucky over South Carolina?
Yeah, as much as I would have liked it to, it didn't happen.  Kentucky's ONLY notable win as far as I can tell is that LSU game.  They played Florida close too, but the Mississippi State loss is awful.

by CStiger on Nov 14, 2007 7:11 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, LSU counts for an awful lot
The MSU loss is less awful than the South Carolina loss - MSU is 6-4 with three wins over then-ranked teams that have all gone on to win seven games, so that's not so atrocious. Carolina has lost four games in a row, one to Vanderbilt, and the last two have been U-G-L-Y (they ain't got no alibi for that defense right now). I explained that in close cases I was rewarding big wins like LSU over a couple pretty good wins, i.e. the round robin among Penn State, Wisconsin and Michigan. It's close. And if you want awful losses...uh, you know, Appalachian State...

If you're arguing here South Carolina should be ranked ahead of Kentucky, check the scores over the last month. I don't think you are, because that would be insane.

by SMQ on Nov 14, 2007 8:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Undefeated Kansas
I've been tracking the same as Gunslinger, only at the moment I'm using the best rank by 50%+1 of the 116 computer ratings Dr. Massey tracks.

Here are the teams whose worst loss is to a team ranked better than Kansas' best win:

WL+1    Team
----    --------------------
37    Kentucky
40    South Florida
25    LSU
36    Auburn
37    Georgia
31    Tennessee
19    Virginia Tech
8    Missouri
21    Connecticut
27    Florida
36    Alabama
20    Ohio State
24    Wisconsin
37    Mississippi St
24    Penn State
3    Arizona St
41    Clemson
20    West Virginia
31    Arkansas
31    Vanderbilt
39    Troy

Troy is an especially interesting case because of the common opponent. Troy beat Ok State by 18 at home and Kansas beat the Cowboys by 15 on the road, which looks like a wash.

Now, I'd not argue that Troy is as good as Kansas, but I'd say we have no evidence that Kansas would be undefeated if they'd had Arkansas, Georgia, and Florida on their schedule, as Troy did.

by JPK on Nov 16, 2007 1:52 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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