Quick Responses to a Four-Day Old ESPN Article About Playoffs
Last Friday, less than an hour after the Leader posted a story under the headline "JoePa: 'Bogus excuses' for lack of college playoff," it followed with a helpful review by Mark Schlabach dedicated to enumerating every one of said excuses. Here I'm glad to stand behind the obviously clear-thinking octogenarian:
Critics of a playoff insist college football's regular season would be greatly diminished by an expanded postseason. Week in and week out, from September through December, teams across the country play regular-season games that ultimately determine their chances of winning a national championship. Under a playoff format, critics say teams will only have to worry about not losing too many games.
Like, how many games? Like two games? Like National Champion™ LSU? Since the formation of the BCS, here is the list of teams ranked in the AP's top eight at the end of the regular season (including conference championship games) with more than two losses:
1998: Texas A&M (10-3)
1999: None
2000: None
2001: None
2002: None
2003: Kansas State (11-3)
2004: None
2005: None
2006: None
2007: None

Another perfect record foiled.
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In 1998, Texas A&M was just off an upset of No. 1-ranked Kansas State in the Big 12 Championship game; one of its three regular season losses in the books (just in case anyone is looking this up) was a self-imposed forfeit to Louisiana Tech. So, since 1998 (since at least 1995, actually, according to this archive), the only team to finish the regular season in the AP's top eight with more than two actual, on-field losses is Kansas State in 2003, a team that ended the regular season with seven straight wins and a four-touchdown demolition of undefeated, No. 1-ranked Oklahoma in the Big 12 Championship.
Here are the one and two-loss teams since the start of the BCS not ranked in the AP's top eight at the end of the regular season (BCS conferences only):
1998: Georgia Tech, Arkansas, Virginia, Notre Dame
1999: Michigan State, Penn State, Mississippi State
2000: Nebraska, Notre Dame, Clemson, Georgia Tech
2001: Texas, Oklahoma, Washington State, Stanford
2002: Washington State, Notre Dame
2003: Miami, Florida State, Texas
2004: Iowa, Michigan, LSU, Wisconsin
2005: West Virginia, LSU, Virginia Tech, Alabama, UCLA, Miami, Louisville, Texas Tech
2006: Wisconsin, Auburn, West Virginia, Rutgers, Notre Dame, Wake Forest, Virginia Tech
2007: West Virginia, Arizona State
Every single year of the BCS' existence has produced between 10 and 16 BCS conference teams with two or fewer losses, excluding Tulanes, Utahs, Boise States and Hawaiis. So, bearing in mind the record of the most recent BCS champion, how many regular season losses is too many?
"If Michigan and Ohio State are playing at the end of the year and both are undefeated, whoever wins is going to the national championship," Stoops said. "If you had a playoff, they're both going to qualify and that game doesn't mean a whole lot, does it?..."
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Michigan and Ohio State have met with undefeated records twice in the last 40 years: 1973 and 2006. Since the formation of the BCS, OSU-Michigan in '06 and OSU-Texas the same year are the only regular season games between #1 and #2 in the AP; Nebraska-Oklahoma was a 2-3 game in 2000 and a 3-2 game in 2001; OU-Texas was 2-3 in 2002. Florida-Florida State was 1-2 in 1996, before the BCS. Most of these are annual rivalry games that would become far more meaningful with a playoff at stake in years both teams are "merely" in the top 10 or 12, which is the case about five times as often as when both teams are at the top of the polls. I'll take the slightly reduced national impact of the exceedingly rare Armageddon game for the increased importance of a half dozen other big games every year. Elementary: the more teams that are eligible for the championship late in the season, the more meaningful all of those games will be.

We don't want to be handing out mulligans, after all.
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And why should it matter if Michigan loses to Ohio State if it doesn't matter when LSU loses to Arkansas, or Kentucky, or Ohio State loses to Illiois, or Florida loses to Auburn, or Oklahoma loses to Kansas State, or Nebraska gets waxed by Colorado, or Florida State loses to N.C. State, etc.? If "every game counts," then three of the last five BCS championships should be vacated for the unsightly stain(s) on its winner's ledger.
Another chief concern of a playoff is fans' ability to travel from one bowl site to another -- both physically and financially -- and the logistical challenges of having to move hundreds of players, coaches, support staff and students across the country in less than a week's time.
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I dunno, how do they schedule sites, sell tickets and move people around week-to-week in I-AA? Division II? Division III? The NCAA basketball tournament? The NCAA baseball tournament? The NFL? NBA? MLB? NHL? NASCAR? Every single other sport in America that is not ever considering a move away from a playoff? What do they do, hire people?
College football purists also insist a playoff would diminish the importance of bowl games, one of the sport's greatest traditions. While the current BCS bowl games would likely have to be incorporated into any playoff format, Tranghese isn't sure it would stay that way for long.
If we went tomorrow to a full-blown playoff, what makes anybody think the bowls are going to be preserved?" Tranghese said. "If the Big East or the Big Ten are going to engage in a full-blown playoff, then why the heck am I going to play everybody in their home area? If I'm a No. 1 or No. 2 seed, then come to New York and play in 20-degree weather. You and I know none of that's going to fly."
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I have no idea what Tranghese is talking about. Barry Alvarez, on the other hand...
But Alvarez said eliminating the bowl experience, in which players are wined and dined in the host city for several days, is one of the biggest pitfalls of a potential playoff. Alvarez, who led the Badgers to back-to-back Rose Bowl victories in 1999 and 2000, said he cherished the bowl experience as a player at Nebraska and as a coach.
"Everybody talks about having a true playoff, but they forget about the tradition of the bowls," Alvarez said. "It's still about the kids and the experiences the kids have. I made the decision to go to Nebraska because I wanted to play in big bowl games and to play in the Orange Bowl and the Sugar Bowl. I wanted to have experiences where you normally wouldn't be treated like that. It doesn't have to be the Orange or Sugar bowls. It could be the bowl game in Boise or any bowl because if you're treated special it's an experience you're never going to forget. If you go to a playoff system, you throw that out the window."
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Why do you throw that out the window? Why would we eliminate the bowl experience, Barry? In what way would a playoff infringe upon the exhilaration of the Papajohns.com Bowl in a manner that the Bowl Championship Series does not? In what way would the playoff experience, of momentum and excitement on campus building week after week, win after win, be less rewarding for players and fans? And if it's more rewarding, why would we hang on to a hollowed-out tradition just because that's what you did in the sixties?
It's the same old things, mostly: notice the old "academics" defense is such a fluffy light canard it's not even put up to be blown down. Nobody has ever bought that. We've moved on to actual issues of competition, for the most part. And it'll be the same old things over and over again, right up to that point that, as Chris Peterson says, "pressure from the fans and people on the outside" pushes through a "compromise" – another compromise, that is, since the BCS itself is an attempt at compromise to the fans' clamor for a real national championship game following the Georgia Tech-Colorado, Miami-Washington, Nebraska-Penn State and Nebraska-Michigan fiascos – that evolves into a playoff. That is all.
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Comments
Playoffs
Isn’t Tranghese saying that if Rutgers is #1, why should they have to travel to the Sugar Bowl/Rose Bowl to play a lower seeded LSU or USC (as an example)? Shouldn’t the lower seed have to come to, say, the Meadowlands?
by Lando in disguise on May 27, 2008 3:05 PM EDT reply actions
How does that affect the Papajohns.com Bowl?
Seems like a good argument for a playoff to me – no bowl game is going the Meadowlands as is. And if Rutgers was No. 1 now, they’d still have to go to the Orange/Rose/Sugar/Fiesta Bowl. Just like Michigan, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Penn State and Nebraska always have.
other bowls
I always figured the other bowls would stay intact regardless of a playoff. I’m not sure what he meant by that. I just think he was saying that a real playoff would eventually force a change in venue so all those teams you mention aren’t playing in other teams "home" stadiums when they make the playoffs. I’m not defending him, I was just trying to interpret him.
by Lando in disguise on May 27, 2008 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
How, exactly, do you propose a fanbase to afford traveling to different venues every week to support their team should they advance? If a team like Rutgers ever played deep into the playoffs then they would have virtually zero fan support for almost every game. Even teams with large fanbases cannot afford to travel each week. What you would get is fans waiting for their team to get to the championship game before buying ticket packages. You might not even sell out some of the lesser games in the playoffs.
Yeah
Yeah, I thought his answer to the travel question could use some more clarification.
The pro sports leagues and lower football divisions fill up playoff games by having them in teams’ home stadiums. Same with college baseball until the CWS. NASCAR tracks are also largely filled by the local populace. Only the NCAA basketball tournament has neutral sites throughout, and those don’t always sell out when it’s not a case of UNC playing in the Raleigh sub-regional or something similar.
Any NCAA football playoff games will sell out no matter where you put them thanks to corporate sponsors and interested locals filling in any seats not sold to real fans. However, it is a burden on a fanbase if you expect them to travel to traditional bowl sites for three weeks in a row.
It would not be fair to tell Rutgers fans (or any east coast fans) that they have to go to the Cotton Bowl for the first round, then the Fiesta Bowl for the second round, then the Rose Bowl for the third. Same with a west coast team going to the Cotton or Citrus for the first round, the Sugar for the second, and the Orange for the third.
I would think the first round for a 8 team playoff would need to be at home stadiums.
Pretty much...
You might be able to quarterfinals at regional sites (one midwest dome*, one Florida/Georgia site, one Texas/Louisiana site, and one California/Arizona site), but the best bet is for the round of 8 (and the round of 16, if you do things my way) to be at the home site of the higher seed. Semis and finals at neutral sites.
- St. Louis, Detroit, Indianapolis, and Minneapolis all have perfectly good venues.
Again, you are not going to have true fans travel to these places two weeks in a row. The average fan would hardly be able to afford going for one week yet alone two. And teams like a Rutgers would have almost zero fan support. Only the largest fanbases would be able to fill up these stadiums consistently. Or, as Year2 stated, you are going to have corporate sponsors and hometown people fill up these stadiums. You want to talk about diluting an atmosphere?
For an 8 team playoff you are going to need to have home field advantage for every game except the championship.
For basketball...
... they manage to travel three weeks in a row. And if you want, you can put an off week between the semis and the finals.
Since when...
has this ever been about the fans?
by Charlestowne on May 28, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re right. We should just play in front of empty stadiums. Hell, why even let the fans watch on TV? We can issue some press passes and then let them read about it in the newspaper the next day.
Some do. Some don’t. However, that is not the issue at hand. We are trying to come up with a way a hypothetical playoff could be efficiently run.
It's not hard.
Break the bracket into an East and West Region. Play at the home site of the higher seed until the regional finals. Play the regional finals at neutral sites (say, the East Finals in Atlanta and the West Finals in Phoenix). Have a bye week between the regional finals and the national championship game.
Done.
It may seem easy to a message board poster...
but in this place called reality it is not. You will never remove the bowls and you will never have a 16 team playoff. The bowls will have to be integrated into the system and the most we will have is an 8 team playoff. Really, the 8 team playoff will not come easily and the realistic alternative is a plus one format.
TV contracts, bowl contracts, individual universities, conference wishes, and influential people all have to be appeased before anything will change. You cannot clap your fingers and create a march madness type setup. Right now you have TV contracts up for bidding in a few years, bowl contracts expiring at separate times, most universities opposing it, and 9 out of 11 conferences against it. There is a long way to go before even a plus one is implemented and there is nothing you can do except living with it.
You asked for a workable scheme
not a workable scheme that will keep the bowls happy. My plan would make gobs of money and be quite workable on the field.
I'd imagine
Rutgers fans would happily give away the fan support on-site for the extra added incentive of actually competing for a national championship, which they’ll only do under a playoff system.
I’m sure Rutgers would. They were just a placeholder, though. It doesn’t really matter the specific team. Let’s have some fun with this exercise and insert a team that has a decent following but not the largest fanbase: Oregon.
Oregon is the number two seed in this hypothetical playoff. They have to travel to Florida to play in the Orange Bowl against the number seven ranked team, say, Oklahoma. Oregon’s fanbase will be greatly outnumbered although they probably would in any bowl game against a traditional powerhouse. That, however, is not the problem. How many Oklahoma fans are going to spend a couple grand to watch their team play in only a quarterfinal game? Conversely, how many Oregon fans are going to show up for that when their team has a chance to make it to the national title game?
What you then have is a similar situation to the Super Bowl only exacerbated to a ridiculous degree. Corporate sponsors and locals will dominate the stadium. And college football is as much about the atmosphere as it actually is about the two teams. Robbing college football of an integral part of its popularity is a foolish move.
Any 8 or more team playoff will have to have home field advantage integrated into it.
I have absolutely zero problem
with home field advantage.
However, this hypothetical Oregon vs. Oklahoma game (like any CFB games) is more about the game - the two teams, etc. - than the “atmosphere” at the stadium for the overwhelming majority of viewers.
College football is not the NFL. The atmosphere is college football. Removing it is an unforgivable crime.
Ok?
No, it isn’t. I guess we agree to disagree.
Anyways, a playoff hardly eliminates the “atmosphere” of “college football.” We’re talking about a fraction of the games on any given year. The regular season remains unchanged. And I don’t think it’s unforgivable to do away with the Meineke Car Care Bowl, or the New Mexico Department of Tourism Bowl, at least not for sacrificing “atmosphere.”
What we do with the other bowls is of no concern to me. Maybe you have never been to a BCS bowl game game where two powerhouse teams match up. That’s ok…not everyone knows how much fun it is. If a playoff is really meant for the fans then the atmosphere cannot be disturbed. That’s why home field advantage needs to be implemented in a hypothetical playoff.
BCS Top 8
If you go back and look at every BCS poll, you’ll find that there’s a noticeable to significant gap between #8 and #9 of the pre-bowl rankings in 7 or 8 of the 10 years (depending on how you define the terms).
Sure there would be whining from #9 if you just took the top 8 BCS poll teams, but that team has had less ground to stand on historically than most believe. The real threat to a playoff’s legitimacy is not complaints that #9 or #10 should have been in over #8, but a 4- or 5-loss conference champion (I’m looking at you, ACC) getting into the playoff with an auto-bid.
This is easy. GIVE US A PLAYOFF
First, I have a few questions that nobody talks about. Why doesn’t anybody ever talk about where the BCS came from or why it was created in the first place. Maybe If we start asking why it’s even in place and would those reasons for creating it still hold true today. If the only reason to create it was to crown a national champion then we need to get rid of it and move ASAP to a playoff system cause you know like I know it pretty much sucks at pairing 1 vs 2. Especically when there are multiple teams wearthy of being # 1 or 2.
WHAT WE AS FANS NEED TO DO IS MAKE THE NCAA AWARE OF WHAT THE FANS REALLY WANT. THE FANS WANT A PLAYOFF! LIKE ANY OTHER SPORT. I PROPOSE THIS… FROM NOW ON, NO MATTER WHAT COL. FOOTBALL GAME YOU GO TO MAKE A SIGN THAT SAYS EITHER “WE WANT A PLAYOFF” OR “WE WANT BCS” IF THEY SEE PEOPLE ARE VOICING THEIR OPINIONS THEY HAVE TO GIVE US WHAT WE WANT!!!
..And that's good for another Cards First Down!
by AllinWithMyCards on May 27, 2008 11:12 PM EDT reply actions
WHAT COL. FOOTBALL GAME YOU GO TO MAKE A SIGN THAT SAYS EITHER "WE WANT A PLAYOFF" OR "WE WANT BCS" IF THEY SEE PEOPLE ARE VOICING THEIR OPINIONS THEY HAVE TO GIVE US WHAT WE WANT!!!
No, they don’t. The NCAA doesn’t lose money off of signs. The only way for fan displeasure to affect this is if you don’t go to games anymore, you don’t buy merchandise, and you stop watching college football. Now, that isn’t going to happen.
I got a few questions? The BS smells fishy.
Where in history did some some guy have the audicity to say “No, lets not have a tournement to see who’s the greatest in the land. lets make 101 bowl games. and maybe sprinkel a national champion here and there.”
What did the NCAA do before bowl games? Why is college football postseason treated like its made for kidergarders? With the “everybody is a winner” deal. I understand people will lose money but at the same time, the NCAA needs to get control back of its product and find another way to make money. They’ll still find a way to call it the Totitos, Cheeze it’s, Sony, Blockbuster, Milkey Way, Mike’s Hard Lemonade CHAMPIONSHIP GAME! REeeeeal TALK. LMAO
And where did the ranking system BS come from? With the BCS, if our team loses one game. One single game. We know from there on. This probley ain’t our year. Now we gotta go to the “come Give granny sum sugar Bowl”. NOBODY wants to go to a bowl game played Nov 30th. They rather go home and eat.
From now on when you go to a college football game. Which ever team it is. Hold up a sign that says “BCS-BS, Playoff YES!”
Big Red Bird Of The Derby City
by AllinWithMyCards on May 28, 2008 12:13 AM EDT reply actions
Why do fans feel like these amateur athletes owe it to them to wrap the season up nicely by playing additional games and providing an undisputed national champion? Did any of you play football in college? I did, and I can tell you that playing any more games would be terrible for these athletes. They already sacrifice enough for essentially minimum wage (tuition plus room and board, etc.). Maybe Joe Fan’s desire for entertainment and satisfaction is less important than the student athletes’ needs.
by slim charles 89 on May 28, 2008 5:48 PM EDT reply actions
Well...
one reason fans think the players owe them something is because we fund the system that provides many of them with a free education worth many tens of thousands of dollars. We also fund the system that provides them wtih coaches, trainers, equipment, fields, stands, fans, reason, etc.
In any event, this isn’t about asking the players what they owe us. The players don’t make that decision. (I happen to think most players would prefer a playoff; playoffs are inclusive and thus increase the likelihood that many hundreds of CFB players will have at competing for a national championship—excepting you, of course.) And it isn’t about trying to suck desire out of the players.
Re: Student athletes’ needs, does that extend to College basketball players? Every other college football division?
I don’t believe fans have the right to tell amateur athletes that they have to play additional games without receiving any additional compensation. My buying of a jersey or ticket does help fund the athletic department that provides these kids with free educations, but this compensation is extremely inadequate for how much they sacrifice: basically all free time, missing classes to travel, living in pain during the season.
“Re: Student athletes’ needs, does that extend to College basketball players? Every other college football division?”
College basketball sold its soul a long time ago. Do any of these athletes get any school in during the conference and NCAA tournaments? Probably not. We don’t want major college football going down that same path. And I guarantee you the lower division athletes’ academics suffer while traveling to playoff games…I know it made it a lot harder for me missing classes because of traveling to road games. Plus most of my teammates (who all love football by the way) did not want to play additional games because our bodies are so beat up by the end of the season and we are just dead tired.
by slim charles 89 on May 29, 2008 7:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Re:
“I don’t believe fans have the right to tell amateur athletes that they have to play additional games without receiving any additional compensation. My buying of a jersey or ticket does help fund the athletic department that provides these kids with free educations, but this compensation is extremely inadequate for how much they sacrifice: basically all free time, missing classes to travel, living in pain during the season.”
I guess you don’t want to address scholarships, then? But who cares, really, because fans can’t and aren’t telling the athletes anything. The fans didn’t decide the BCS, they won’t decide (at least directly) the future playoff system. The powers that be do have the right to tell the athletes how and when they’ll play.
“We don’t want major college football going down that same path.”
“We”? You.
That is all.
Too many games?
I’d note here that in every level of football except I-A college football - even high school, in states like Texas where the top levels have a 64-team playoff - at least a few teams routinely play more than 16 or 17 games that’s the absolute most possible with a 16-team playoff.
This can’t be done without home games, I don’t think; you’re not going to get fans to travel on short notice for three games. Home games may be a good thing, though – it helps to keep the regular season important by giving the top teams an easier road (so a team that barely makes it in will require a more impressive run to win than a hypothetical unbeaten USC/OSU/random SEC team). Brian at mgoblog actually suggested taking it one step further – six teams, first round byes for the top two, all games except the final at home sites. Then these late games which playoff naysayers think will suddenly be meaningless (when both teams are getting in anyway) now become the difference between a first-round bye and back-to-back road games (for the #5 and #6 seeds).
I can agree with this. Home field advantage needs to be implemented, period. Any playoff will not work without it. I have no problem with a first round bye other than the fact that it pretty much relies on the polls once again. If people want the polls to have lesser impact then they will not be happy with the top two seeds receiving a first round bye. I personally am fine with it.
Even with the first round bye, they’d have to win two games against top-6 teams, one at a neutral site. That would boost their resume enough that even if the playoff were an informal arrangement rather than an official championship, there would be no doubt they should be #1. (And it wouldn’t necessarily be the polls doing the seeding – perhaps a committee like in basketball. Certainly I wouldn’t want the coaches’ poll involved – can you say “conflict of interest”?)
The polls aren’t going to be eliminated. They will have to be integrated into the playoffs just like the Bowls.
I think that they both could be integrated nicely, though. The Bowls would have the first two rounds at home field sites with the championship game at a location like the Rose Bowl. Then the other bowls would have their pick out of the top teams after the six. It would take some convincing, but it could eventually be the format we use. I think that this only comes about from an evolution from the Plus One format, though.

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