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Following Up

My observation of looming anti-Buckeye bias in March met with some minor resistance (minor in the quantitative sense, not qualitative) on grounds of defensive regionalism, since, in fact, OSU weariness is not confined to the South. Alas, the meme marches on, appearing this week in not just one but two editions of that vaunted offseason timekiller, the "mailbag."

 

First it's Pete Fiutak, progenitor of the original argument, who dealt with an incredulous reader last week: 

    Prove to me that Jim Tressel deserves to be called an elite CFB coach without providing stats of how OSU has dominated an average Big Ten conference. The past two years have shown me a side of Tressel as either a poor clutch-decision maker or a terrible motivator. 
    [...]
     It is evident that when Tressel is forced to provide decisions outside the basic game plan (aka when trailing late in a game), he lays an egg. The other game that completely shocked me was the Illinois game. A team competing to play for a national championship can't beat a team AT HOME that won two games the year before? Ron Zook outcoached Jim Tressel. That should be all I have to say. 

I like that: "without using stats," code for, "without using evidence that might contradict my ill-informed, gut-level instinct." Fiutak dispatches this quickly and effectively in Tressel's favor (using stats).

Stewart Mandel's Q-and-A is more telling of my ill-informed, gut-level impression of the national mood toward Ohio State. Mandel's inbox is deeper than SMQ's, certainly, and he obviously knows from hate:

Stewart: I'm of the belief that college football benefits from the presence of a perennial powerhouse to root for/against. This role has been filled recently by USC and, to some degree, Oklahoma and LSU. Do you see any team asserting itself in the next few years and filling the role?
-- Marc P., Somerville, Mass.

I'm pretty sure that team already exists -- and it's The Ohio State University.

In nearly a decade covering this sport, I've never seen such universal animosity toward a program (Notre Dame notwithstanding) than what currently surrounds the Buckeyes. Based on some of the e-mails I receive, you would think Jim Tressel has been caravanning around the country egging houses.

It's pretty interesting when you think about it. Normally, people root against the teams that win a lot; in this case, the ill will has been generated entirely by the Buckeyes having lost in consecutive national championship games.

For an example, Stew moves on to his next question:

Ohio State should now be permanently banned from the top five. If not that, at least keep them out of the top two. They DO NOT belong there.
-- Kevin Flagg, Alpharetta, Ga.

See what I mean?

I think the argument can be revised from disdain among voters – who, despite Mandel's promise that OSU will "will quietly disappear into the night" with an early loss to USC, seem to like the Buckeyes just fine – to a general disdain among some sizable segment of the masses. I think this will be irrelevant to voters if OSU wins in the Coliseum, but I don't think it will go away among the viewing/commenting/letter-writing rabble, which seems to demand mythical championship blood in atonement for the sins of the last two alleged title games. This won't matter at all if Ohio State runs the table.


What is this, Photoshop?
- - -

But where I think "public sentiment" might have some vague residual effect is in the case Ohio State beats SC but loses somewhere in the Big Ten, especially to Michigan at the end of a (probably) rough year for the Wolverines, and the vote comes down to the Buckeyes and another one-loss team from the Big 12 or SEC, or – this would be interesting – against one-loss USC itself. Dozens of plausible scenarios are debatable, but that's the one I like best: if Ohio State beats Southern Cal early on, loses once in the Big Ten while the Trojans "play as well as anyone in the country" out West and faces SC for the second spot in the BCS, will pollsters have an incentive (including financial, if they think people might tune out) to vote against OSU based on the losses to Florida and LSU? If Ohio State loses to USC and has to make its case against another one-loss team on the merits of winning the Big Ten? 

If the choice is obvious, which it has been the last two years, there won't be problem. But the choices are frequently not obvious; five times in eight years (2000, 2001, 2004, 2006, 2007), there's been some level of dispute about Choice B over Choice C. The same way voters bumped Florida in part to avoid an Ohio State-Michigan rematch two years ago (a decision I agreed with by any reasoning) and bumped LSU over Georgia and Virginia Tech on the final vote last year (when again, I completely agreed), it's easy to envision pollsters sitting down after whatever quaking goes on in the Big 12 and SEC and (what the hell) ACC championships with headlines and radio hosts and ESPN talking heads lamenting a prospective championship that included one-loss Ohio State as "the matchup no one wants to see." That's just my read on popular opinion, possibly distorted, but as long as OSU is in the discussion, it's going to be a storyline: does college football want the Buckeyes back on its biggest stage? I think the answer is 'yes' only under the most ideal circumstances.

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Tressel...Richt

Its interesting that in the previous thread there is criticism of Richt for failing to win an MNC desptie compling the best record in the SEC (yes THAT ESSSSEEEECCCCC…you know…with the speed and stuff) and on the other of Tressel who managed to win an MNC in his second year in the Division 1 and do so over one of the most gifted (in terms of NFL talent) teams of all time and subsequently lmade it two consequitve MNC games (in the first instance have secured the spot with nary an objection).

by marcillac on May 13, 2008 12:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It's a fickle group who follows that which we love

To say the least.

May the wings of liberty never lose a feather

by peacedog on May 13, 2008 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Keep in mind that the criticism of Richt came from a fan of a rival school.

I mean, there’s nothing wrong with being Bo Schembechler, Barry Alvarez, or Bill Snyder who all won plenty of games and are legends at their schools without winning a national championship. There’s no shame in that at all. I would like to find a Georgia fan though who would be content to see Richt retire on the “best never to win a national title” list.

by Year2 on May 13, 2008 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed yet ...

...there is some irony in the coaches you mention. While Schmbechler’s record, particularly in the 70s, is by FAR the most impressive of the 3 it is that record which is in the context of the venue is viewed to be most deficient. I remember pretty clearly from the early to mid 80s when I first started following college football that the subject of his failure to secure an MNC and win in the Rose Bowl was constatnly broached.

Given the historical standards at Wisconsin and particularly KSU, it is impossible to imagine that fans of those schools could possibly have any gripe with the lack of still greater achievements.
(The same might of have been said of FSU but the perisistent top 5 finishes sans MNC seemed to have become a constantly aggravated irritant).

by marcillac on May 13, 2008 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That may be true, but after Goff and Donnan I can’t image how any Georgia fan could be upset with Richt. And sorry I don’t remember people complaining about Schembechler not winning a national title, I was born in ‘85 and by the time I knew who he was Bo was already into untouchable gilded legend status.

How about Johnny Majors* in his years at Tennessee? Or Dan Marino’s Dolphins teams? Or Patrick Ewing’s Knicks? Or the Atlanta Braves minus ‘95?

*Won his national title at Pitt, not Tennessee.

by Year2 on May 13, 2008 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I only mention....

...Richt because a commentor on SMQs Georgia post said something about believing that Richt will win in when he sees it. I too think that he has given the Georgia fans much to be content with and better things may well follow.

They were in fact talking about Bo’s lack of big wins circa 84 or 85. He was certainly an icon and the criticism never apporached what I heard respecting Osborne and Bowden (I don’t recall what was said about Paterno – PSU won in 82 – but apparantely there was criticism prior to that time) but it was definately there.

As a general matter I agree with the burden of what you seem to be saying. Particularly in football it does seem ridiculous to give championships as much weight as many seem too. The notion of Payton Manning (prior to last year) or Marino beign loosers is a joke.

I really don’t recall what the perspective was at Tennessee during the Majors years. (Perhaps Holly – or other Volunteer loyalists- might enlighten us about the history here – but I don’t think he had the kind of success there that would have generated an expectation of a National Championship.

by marcillac on May 13, 2008 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Little young for that

I mean, I remember him, but he left when I was 10. I wasn’t cognizant enough of the workings of the program to take part in coaching evaluations until I was at least 12.

by Holly Anderson on May 14, 2008 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, that guy in the other thread was me. The point I wanted to make (and did a horrible job at doing so) was that Richt’s tenure at Georgia so far has been marked by bad luck and bad timing.

As SMQ pointed out, a 12-1 pre-bowl record puts UGA in the title game 7 of the BCS’s 10 years, but Richt had the bad luck and bad timing of doing it in one of the three years with multiple undefeated teams. His team in 2007 turned it around and could have won a national championship since there was actually a 2-loss national champion, but he had the misfortune of losing to Tennessee, who made an improbable turnaround themselves (after losing 59-20 in week 3) and got to the SEC title game.

I’m on the record elsewhere as saying that just as the surprising 2007 BCS games ushered in the 2007 Season of Upsets, so the blowouts of the 2008 BCS games will usher in the 2008 Season of Titans.

USC in the Pac 10, Ohio State in the Big Ten, Oklahoma and Missouri in the Big 12, West Virginia in the Big East (to a lesser extent), and Georgia, Florida, and LSU in the SEC all have reasonable shots at going undefeated. If Georgia goes 11-1 against its schedule, which would be an impressive season, it might be on the outside looking in due to USC, OSU, OU/Mizzou, or possibly even Florida (if UF is that one loss) going undefeated.

Georgia just picked a bad time to play its toughest schedule in recent memory. A lot of teams have key parts coming back, so I expect something like what we saw in college basketball this year where many of 2007’s key players came back to form 2008’s best teams. We won’t see the same chaos as last year, and losing a game might eliminate a team from national title contention. It’s not Richt’s fault, but that’s the way it probably will be. Bad luck and timing again.

Richt is a fantastic coach, a good man, and a real asset to the University of Georgia.

by Year2 on May 14, 2008 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

I do hope your right in respect of 08 being the year of titans. Last year was exciting as such but seeing consistent excellence would be nice. Here some luck would be requited. People staying healthy would help.

by marcillac on May 14, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

clarification for Kyle King (since comments are closed on the March 28 post that's linked by SMQ)

My comment that I couldn’t have picked three worse years to live in the south was meant along the lines of “ouch, OSU has lost two football and one basketball title games to SEC schools – my timing is bad,” not “oh my god these SEC fans are soooo mean.” I haven’t found the latter to be the case.

by osuvandy on May 13, 2008 1:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

OSU Fatigue

I agree with the general theme of this post…the public at large is tired of seeing an OSU team from the “mediocre” Big 10 getting slaughtered in the MNC game.

To respond to a couple of your questions:

if Ohio State beats Southern Cal early on, loses once in the Big Ten while the Trojans “play as well as anyone in the country” out West and faces SC for the second spot in the BCS, will pollsters have an incentive (including financial, if they think people might tune out) to vote against OSU based on the losses to Florida and LSU?

OSU should be in the title game under this scenario (ignoring all other factors obviously). The only plausible arguments to deny them would be the “best loss” argument or the simple fact of OSU’s performance in the MNC game the past 2 years…neither of which I think are relevant to the decision for this year.

If Ohio State loses to USC and has to make its case against another one-loss team on the merits of winning the Big Ten?

This scenario is more debatable. Their best argument would be the aforementioned “best loss” argument since presumably the other one-loss team would have a lesser loss, but better wins. Things might be close and I could see the pollsters counting the past performance in the MNC game against them pretty hard.

All that said, I’m sick of this happening and wish there were a playoff of some sort…in which case OSU would possibly lose early very often and get a reputation as an early round choker.

by TexasTiger on May 13, 2008 1:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

good argument

“All that said, I’m sick of this happening and wish there were a playoff of some sort…in which case OSU would possibly lose early very often and get a reputation as an early round choker.”

Yea because its not like Jim Tressel has ever won a championship with a playoff system…(4 of them).

by PoeMcKnoe on May 13, 2008 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not commenting on Tressel's record in playoffs

just mentioning that OSU’s performance on the grandest of stages has been subpar the past 2 years…in fact the line was mostly just a throw-in as I’m sure if OSU were seeded 1 or 2 in a playoff (as they would have been the past couple of years) they could surely knock of the 7 or 8 seed most of the time.

Just relax.

by TexasTiger on May 14, 2008 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, it is little barbs like that which are indicative of an average fan who thinks he is extremely witty when he is really not.

by gahnki on May 14, 2008 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and before you respond I want to say that I’m not accusing you of being an unintelligent fan….just that little barbs like that are hardly necessary and really just devalue your assertion.

by gahnki on May 14, 2008 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

2006

I love how everyone forgets that the Big Ten was considered to be a really tough league in 2006. Remember how we thought Wisconsin got shafted by the rule saying no more than two BCS reps from each conference? It wasn’t until later that the revisionist historians made the Big Ten into a conference on a long decline.

It had a down year in 2007. It will be back. That is all.

by Year2 on May 13, 2008 2:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That’s not kool-aid drinking, that’s objective analysis. When a team that went 11-2 and played in the national title game is returning most of its starters (especially at key positions like QB, RB, and MLB), will be very experienced, and will play in a conference that looks to be down, how can you not assume it will be at or near the top?

Schlabach, if you’re not familiar, is a UGA graduate and former AJC columnist. He has no reason to be biased towards Ohio State.

by Year2 on May 13, 2008 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You misunderstand

I’m definitely not dogging on tOSU. They’re a great team and will continue to be year in year out. Probably will earn another deserved trip to the BCS game

I just like ESPN (or MS in this instance)defying all the nay-sayers lovin' for Georgia.

by ThreeNout on May 13, 2008 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really don’t like presseason polls very much. Georgia, Ohio State, USC, Missouri, WV, and Oklahoma all have a legitimate argument for number one to start the season. Polls like that are just created to start arguments.

by gahnki on May 14, 2008 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Response to OSU/BCS criticsm

Ohio State was ‘re-building’ last season if such a thing is possible- that is simply to say they lost a heisman trohpy winning QB and few other notable 1st-rounders. The only reason OSU climbed up in the polls last season is because EVERYONE was loosing, No one could hold the top spot for more than two weeks before getting knocked off.

Then OSU got knocked off itself by Illinois, putting them in situation where SEVEN teams had to lose in order for the Bucks to make it to the Nat’l Championship again. Even after the Michigan victory the scenario seemed so hopeless that the Bucks were holding roses, glad to be going to Pasadena- NOT New Orleans.

Well… After losing to Illinois, OSU fans couldn’t complain about being snubbed a chance to play in the title game, but neither can the SEVEN top-ten teams which suffered monumental colapses in the weeks that followed. The champioship game could have been Missouri vs West Virginia. So why should Ohio State get punished next year because every other team that ‘deserved’ to play in the title game lost?

No one from the SEC or otherwise would be bashing OSU’s right to play for a title right now if USC had beaten Stanford at mid-season and went on to play LSU for the title. A ‘rebuilding’ OSU team stumbled into that BCS failure because a situation which no one thought could happen did. Now all I hear is how even if OSU runs the table next they still wouldn’t deserve a chance to play for a title game- what the hell did OSU do to deserve that?

by hangonskoky on May 23, 2008 11:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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